evan: voting

Evan Martin (

evan) wrote,
@ 2008-02-03 15:30:00

voting
I didn't vote, and never have*. Do you think less of me?

I'm not opposed to participating in politics at all (and I enjoy thinking about issues), but I'm not convinced that voting is meaningful or useful.

PS: I was just saying to some friends the other day: I have strong opinions about lots of things, but I don't care at all whether you share them, so I'm not a very good person to argue with. I just wanted to get this out there.

* This is not quite true: I went with some friends to vote once but for reasons I didn't understand they gave me an absentee ballot. Who knows whether it was counted!

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(62 comments) - (Post a new comment)

octal
2008-02-03 11:59 pm UTC (link)

Clearly voting as the member of a board of directors (well, a small one, on a contested vote) has value. The odds of being the deciding vote with only 3 or 5 people or whatever are high.

I'd argue that for Presidential elections, rarely does it matter outside of a few contested states.

Somewhere in between is the line, and usually it can't be determined in advance.

I'd probably pay $50 to vote in the presidential election, given that it is unlikely to make much difference, and none of the candidates are THAT bad. In some elections, I'd pay a lot more.

I've always voted absentee federal, so I probably have never actually voted either.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	evan 2008-02-04 12:01 am UTC (link)
	You can buy my vote for an additional $50. (Disclaimer: our voting system is designed for it to be difficult for you to verify I voted in a particular way, nor will whether or not I vote the way you paid me for be measurable in any real-world effect.) (Reply to this) (Parent)

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burr86, 2008-02-04 12:11 am UTC (Expand)

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nibot, 2008-02-04 12:13 am UTC (Expand)

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optic, 2008-02-04 05:26 am UTC (Expand)

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nibot, 2008-02-04 05:43 am UTC (Expand)

whatever_art
2008-02-04 12:06 am UTC (link)

You don't seem like a voter.

That said, you lived in washington through at least two controversial ballot years whose final tallies came down to magnitude hundreds vote differences, and it would've been nice to have you (and the other couple thousand people in the state who don't seem like voters) filling out bubbles then.

I'm surprised that no one has scolded you loudly and pinched you continuously until you did register.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	evan 2008-02-04 12:20 am UTC (link)
	I've been sorta closeted about this nonvoting thing up until now. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	ydna 2008-02-04 12:22 am UTC (link)
	I vote religiously. id est, I vote in blind faith that my vote has any real meaning. Probably the same feeling people have when they go to buy their lottery tickets I imagine. Edited at 2008-02-04 12:23 am UTC (Reply to this)

	kkchen 2008-02-04 12:28 am UTC (link)
	it probably has to do with how you grew up. i vote like it's a privilege because the rest of my family in china, can't. (Reply to this)

	jwz 2008-02-04 12:39 am UTC (link)
	I largely believe that voting is the wool we pull over our own eyes to sell ourselves the illusion of participation. However, these days I vote because, hey, it can't hurt. Voting seems much more likely to be effective in local politics than national, both because your vote represents a larger percentage, and because that election is less likely to be rigged. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	karura16 2008-02-04 08:34 pm UTC (link)
	my sentiments exactly! (Reply to this) (Parent)

perligata
2008-02-04 01:00 am UTC (link)

"Blue state" voting apathy seems pretty common among liberal types I know. But you know what? It happens in the red ones too. It kind of bothers me. Here, people think that their likeminded constituents are going to vote the same way, but where I'm from, the liberals also think their votes are useless because they're surrounded by conservatives. Add to that a healthy dose of skepticism about the trustworthiness of voting machines and an occasional anarchistic belief that voting indicates explicit support of a system they oppose, and you end up with what's probably a large-ish group of people whose votes could, conceivably, make a difference.

That said, I'm from Florida where it really (probably) would've made a difference in at least one controversial case.

(Reply to this)

	zezu 2008-02-04 01:13 am UTC (link)
	nihilism is a good thing to grow out of. (Reply to this)

	codetoad 2008-02-04 01:19 am UTC (link)
	Yes, I think less of you. What are you doing that's meaningful and useful? What issues do you care about and what are you doing to make them a reality? If you think the voting system is broken why aren't you advocating fixing it? Voting itself is simple and requires no effort. It's the least you can do to educate yourself on a few items. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	faith 2008-02-04 01:41 am UTC (link)
	I agree! Mostly though: it can't hurt. Apathy is so 1995. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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codetoad, 2008-02-04 02:36 am UTC (Expand)

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faith, 2008-02-04 05:18 am UTC (Expand)

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codetoad, 2008-02-04 02:36 am UTC (Expand)

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candid, 2008-02-04 03:53 am UTC (Expand)

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optic, 2008-02-04 05:28 am UTC (Expand)

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elkay, 2008-02-04 11:41 am UTC (Expand)

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xaosenkosmos, 2008-02-04 05:29 am UTC (Expand)

	mcfnord 2008-02-04 02:47 am UTC (link)
	i do think contributing money has more impact than contributing one vote. (Reply to this)

	dr_nuk 2008-02-04 03:11 am UTC (link)
	Thanks for contributing to the stereotype that young people don't care about politics. (Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

	zanfur 2008-02-04 03:22 am UTC (link)
	I'm curious, is there any actual demographic data on the voting population? I'd like to see it. I think hard data will do a lot more good than insults will. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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dr_nuk, 2008-02-04 03:29 am UTC (Expand)

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zanfur, 2008-02-04 03:37 am UTC (Expand)

zanfur
2008-02-04 03:18 am UTC (link)

I've never voted. Most people I mention this to think less of me for it. To me, the time/reward tradeoff just isn't worth it. I've also never really cared who won.

I think a large part of my apathy comes from two things: 1. I'm a upper-middle-class, male, white american with a supportive family, so if the shit *really* hits the fan, I'm still taken care of; and 2. I've experienced the loss of many of my rights already (held without bail, even), and it's a lot less scary after you've experienced it once. (It still sucks. But it no longer occupies the same space in my mind as "life-ending catasrophe" does.)

(Reply to this)

	shmivejournal 2008-02-04 03:36 am UTC (link)
	I am horrified that you choose not to exercise your most basic civic duty... unless you disagree with me. (Reply to this)

snej
2008-02-04 04:15 am UTC (link)

Yes, you should vote, and I don't believe there are any valid reasons not to. No, your individual vote doesn't make much of a difference. But I know you're smart enough to understand the Voting Paradox. You also know about the Tragedy Of The Commons, and you're not driving a Suburban or pouring your used motor oil down a storm drain, right?

Voting is really easy. And by putting your ballot where your mouth is, you end up thinking about the issues more seriously.

(Reply to this)

	brad 2008-02-04 04:23 am UTC (link)
	Do you think less of me? A little, yeah. It's just kinda sad. I'm cynical as hell, but still vote. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	mverrey 2008-02-04 05:11 am UTC (link)
	Considering your previous web site/venture, I'd find it very ironic if you didn't vote. (Reply to this) (Parent)

slithytove
2008-02-04 04:27 am UTC (link)

If you don't vote, on the ship of state, you're cargo, not crew. The cargo may be fine, worthy cargo. But no one cares what cargo thinks, or where it wants the ship to go.

There's a reason Social Security is considered the 'third rail' of American politics. It's because old people vote. If you want *your* issues to be have the same status and the same concern by politicians, you have to vote, too.

(Reply to this)

zapophenia
2008-02-04 04:45 am UTC (link)

Voting in a primary actually matters a lot more than voting in the November election. In the primary, delegates are chosen by percentage of casted vote. Thus, if Barack and Hillary both get 50% of the vote, they both get 50% of the delegates. In other words, it doesn't matter which way the state sways because it's a battle for delegates.

Personally, I think that they way that you make a difference around voting is to get involved and to inform all of those around you. That's why I run proposition parties and why I try to rally my friends to vote and why I blog my stance (http://www.zephoria.org/thoughts/archives/2008/01/31/my_february_5_v.html). My vote alone might not matter, but I've gotten at least 20 people that I know to register who haven't and a couple hundred to vote for Barack and in my view of the propositions. That's actually a big difference.

Unless you want 100 more years in Iraq and a continuation of the Bush years thanks to McCain's psycho conservative platform, I'd strongly urge you to consider voting for who you think can stop him. You may feel disengaged but you feel the costs of the political system whether you vote or not. If for no other reason, I'd urge to vote for all of the people globally who are affected by our policies and cannot vote.

(Reply to this)

graydon
2008-02-04 05:10 am UTC (link)

I usually vote, but sometimes miss it due to some time conflict.

I always vote green, always have. It's a little odd because the green political platform is nowhere near hard-line enough for my taste, but I know that they are already mostly shut out of the political process due to being too hard-line.

I often feel like the exercise of voting is one in which I get to show myself a very odd mirror. One that displays, and codifies, the worst of my social dysfunctions.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	haran 2008-02-04 06:35 am UTC (link)
	hm. If I'm reading you right (and I may not be), you think the way you vote is representative of 'the worst of your social dsyfunctions'? Why, then, do you persist in voting that way? (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

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graydon, 2008-02-04 07:03 am UTC (Expand)

ellenlouise
2008-02-04 05:14 am UTC (link)

Vote because you can, because it's a privilege, because it's your duty. If everyone, like you, who didn't vote in America did vote, the outcomes of elections could be changed.

Vote because millions, billions of people all over the world either can't vote, or their vote truly does not count. Your vote is just a drop in the bucket, sure, but it has just as much meaning as anyone else's in this country, and that is the best we can ask for. Don't forget what Winston Churchill said about democracy: Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.

(Reply to this)

harryh
2008-02-04 06:09 am UTC (link)

Even if your vote doesn't make a difference in an actual election (which is extremely likely to be decided by > 1 vote), your vote will contribute to increasing the number of people who vote in your demographic (young, urban, liberal, whatever?) and will have a real affect on policy. "Young people don't vote" is a true statement that politicians recognize as reality and has a measurable effect on policy decisions.

These sorts of considerations are much more important than thinking about the (mostly true) fact that "my vote is extremely unlikely to change the course of any given election."

(Reply to this)

gaal
2008-02-04 06:27 am UTC (link)

In Israel, elections are a national day off. I wonder if that can be pulled off in the US? (In some countries, voting's mandatory; I think Australians get fined if they miss votes repeatedly. That won't fly!)

Voting in the States always looked meaningless to me because how the two parties were divided by a handful of issues that sure, I may care about, but which possibly are less important on a whole than how well the actual government is run. And determining who's ass gets the seat of power won't influence things like efficiency, corruption, articulate policy. (If the only thing election's good for is to get the known-bad guy out, let's just limit terms to 4 years per party and be done with it?)

I think other things that private people can once in a while do have more impact. Like, for example, giving blood, or voicing an intelligent opinion on a confusing subject. Not that any of this is mutually exclusive, of course, but everybody's gotta find something that makes sense to them, right?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

trs80 [typekey.com]
2008-02-04 12:30 pm UTC (link)

The fine is $20 and they'll accept any reasonable excuse. Also, you only have to turn up and get your name checked off - they can't fine you for making an invalid vote due to the secret ballot.

The primary advantages of the Australian electoral system is the AEC is completely independant - you can't end up with politicians involved in the election process, unlike say Florida in 2000. Compulsory voting ensures that parties have to target the entire electorate, not just the vocal fringes.

IRV isn't much better than first-past-the-post from a theoretical standpoint, and some states have optional preferential which is prone to reduction to FPTP by a savvy party (see Queensland). Propositions and CIR are run much less often, if at all, and we also don't vote for DAs, judges, school boards or open space directors - elections are almost exclusively to elect the legislature.

A few more details are at http://clubtroppo.com.au/2008/02/04/explaining-the-australian-electoral-system-to-foreigners/

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) -

codetoad, 2008-02-04 05:41 pm UTC (Expand)

(no subject) -

trs80 [typekey.com], 2008-02-04 09:20 pm UTC (Expand)

chris
2008-02-04 06:39 am UTC (link)

I won't say I've always voted, but I have been pretty regular about it in the last few years. I've only not voted out of laziness and not because I thought there wasn't any point or something.

I think as "futile" as voting might be, it's pretty much the only way we've got to express a lot of our politics. so looking at it that way, I think it's kind of inexcusable not to vote. I used to only vote in presidential elections but now I think local politics are way more important and you have much more of a voice in those smaller arenas.

I tend to think that arguments like "i'm not convinced voting is meaningful" are just rationalizations for laziness guised as nihilism. if you have opinions you obviously care. why not give it a shot? worst case scenario you wasted half an hour of a day.

but on the other hand, I acknowledge that voting sure isn't the *most* effective way to influence politics. money and direct action are a lot more affective.

Edited at 2008-02-04 06:41 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Thread)

gleemie
2008-02-04 06:58 am UTC (link)

You're right that voting isn't enough. You need to be calling your congresspeople, letting them know who they work for, or supporting your local activist who does. But if you don't even vote, you have credibility to ask for any of those things. And if you don't want any of that voice, then I feel that you're just riding on the hard work of others who have worked to create the kinds of politically progressive places you have been privileged to grow up in (Seattle, SF). You've been riding the coattails of activist progress living in those cities. Help out!

Edited at 2008-02-04 06:58 am UTC

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	dan_erat 2008-02-04 07:43 am UTC (link)
	Yes. But in an amount commensurate with your would-be vote's effect. That is to say, not much. (Reply to this)

	flipzagging 2008-02-04 08:43 am UTC (link)
	In the USA, elites have done everything possible to ensure that your vote will matter very little. That said... I am a little disappointed that you let your government think you are indifferent to what they do. Is your objection mathematical? That's an interesting question. Voting is an example of what I would call irrational yet necessary behavior. (Reply to this)

no raindrop thinks it's responsible for the flood.

klayzen
2008-02-04 10:30 am UTC (link)

yes, i'm sorry, but i think a little less of you for a slightly different reason than most people express here. I also can't really judge too much because you're (obviously) deliberately vague about your reasons. I can conjecture your reasoning, but that doesn't get me anywhere.

the mathematics on the strict economic values of voting are irrefutable. You get nothing, really, your vote is almost never "meaningful" where "meaningful" is usually defined as "the election was decided by one vote/a small margin of votes." (this is a pretty ridiculous definition of meaningful). So voting is considered 'irrational,' and the cool thinking people stop doing it. great. Frankly, the idea that it only "mattered" if the result was decided by one vote seems rather foolish to me, but what do i know.

I think the economic calculus is really more complicated. Voting (& politics) is a social phenomenon. The thousands of people at rallies, the people who talk to their friends, convince their neighbors, etc -- these are all indirect effects of political interest, and the large accumulation of them are the only steering mechanism we have. If your only political contribution is to remember to vote, and do so essentially at random, then yeah, that's kind of useless. But just about any level of participation has wider reaching, harder to measure effects that *don't* come out in a simple payoff analysis.

Consuming media to inform yourself has measurable effects. Calling your congressman has measurable effects. Saying at a party that yeah, you're working a phone bank this weekend because you really believe in so-and-so has definite social effects. Telling a friend you're voting has measurable effects. These effects are *hard* to measure, and they're maybe not quantifiable -- how much effect your impassioned plea to the Senate staffer about retroactive immunity in the FISA bill had on the Senator isn't exactly numberworthy. But it is real.

Conversely, when a lot of smart people say they don't see the point, that has effects too. If influential people did a time time/payoff calculation for the efforts expended telling us they don't think their votes count, they'd probably say there's no results from telling us that, either.

To paraphrase a Go proverb: "politics isn't about votes, that's just how they count the score"

~
I guess i'm just disappointed because dismissing voting as irrational, meaningless, or useless seems like a really short-sighted analysis that ignores a lot of the intangibles that are socially emergent. The forces that make up social movements are large and hard to perceive, but how else do they occur? To say "well, i can't see them" just seems stupid and lazy. You're not stupid. You can analyze complex systems with subtly interconnecting parts. You do it all the time.

Accepting the idea that voting is irrational seems to trivialize a lot of the subtler interpersonal effects we have on each other. To jump from this to a larger treatise on whether or not feeling disconnected from the world is good for you should happen elsewhere, but it'd be sad to a friend of mine implicitly cut off all these other connections in their quick&dirty, reductionist payoff analysis justifying what's easy.

Of course, i could be putting words in your mouth. You only said "meaningful" & "useful", which could suggest an ideological dissatisfaction instead.

Also, kkchen said it pretty well. Maybe i just grew up seeing a lot of examples of successes of participatory democracy, living in DC.

Finally, I'm bad to argue with for the same reasons. I'm not trying (and don't want) to argue. But it'd be hard for me to tell a friend i thought (a bit!) less of them and not try to explain it at least a little bit. I'm sure you got too much response on this one to reply to everyone, but if you wouldn't mind sanity checking some of my ideas i'd appreciate it.

be well.

Edited at 2008-02-04 12:20 pm UTC

(Reply to this)

	haran 2008-02-04 11:15 am UTC (link)
	but I'm not convinced that voting is meaningful or useful. Then how do you suppose elected officials get elected? Do you believe that the whole voting system is rigged? I can understand not voting because none of the politics really affects you in any significant way. But thats not really your reason, as far as I can tell. (Reply to this)

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